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charleyfarley 1:21 Sat Apr 20
Careful what you wish for? Why West Ham fans want more than David Moyes

One day, perhaps space will be found outside the London Stadium for a statue of David Moyes’s delirious charge down the touchline after Jarrod Bowen’s winner in the Europa Conference League final. Moyes has done a superb job at West Ham and should be hailed as one of the greatest figures in the club’s history if, as seems likely after losing to Bayer Leverkusen in the Europa League, he leaves when his contract expires at the end of the season.

There should be only gratitude towards the Scot for all he has achieved during his second spell in east London. Nobody should forget West Ham were in a relegation battle when Moyes returned in December 2019. Since then they have had three consecutive European campaigns, won a trophy for the first time since 1980 and regularly challenged in the top half of the Premier League, which has given Moyes plenty of ammunition to throw back at his critics whenever the team’s form dips.

Who could do better? West Ham have never qualified for the Champions League and are competing with some of the richest clubs in the world. If they have hit a ceiling under Moyes, then perhaps that is down to financial constraints, particularly in an environment dominated by profitability and sustainability regulations, and in that context it is fair to question whether another manager would be capable of lifting them any higher when the immediate competition for a European spot comes from Saudi-owned Newcastle, Manchester United and Todd Boehly’s £1bn Chelsea.


Some perspective, then. West Ham were bold as they chased down a 2-0 deficit against Leverkusen. They ran hard, showed energy and attacked well. They didn’t look as if they were coached by a negative dinosaur. For many, though, the frustration was that West Ham aren’t always that exciting and expansive. Pundits who defend Moyes point to the trophy and, in hushed tones, tell fans to be careful what they wish for. But it’s a lazy, reductive line that stifles debate and is often uttered by Proper Football Men who know the game but don’t watch West Ham closely.


Just what do these fans want? Well, people who pay a lot to watch games in a repurposed athletics stadium are entitled to crave a team that doesn’t regularly have between 20% and 30% possession. West Ham have Lucas Paquetá, Bowen and Mohammed Kudus. They can be thrilling on the counterattack, and it’s always amusing to watch them stifle a bigger team, but it can also be pretty thin gruel. You can find yourself questioning your life choices during the long spells in which West Ham are sitting back while the opposition endlessly pass the ball from side to side, which often ends with them scoring a crucial late goal.

It’s fine when it works. However, that approach is very result-dependent and West Ham haven’t been producing. They have developed a strange habit of conceding soon after half-time this season and have won four times in all competitions in 2024. They’re a low-block team who have forgotten how to defend, as a record of one clean sheet in the league since the 2-0 win over Arsenal on 28 December demonstrates.

But maybe the low-energy second halves can be explained by West Ham’s lack of depth. The fact that their season is in danger of fizzling out is not a surprise to anyone who paid attention to them during the January transfer window. The squad was already small before Saïd Benrahma, Pablo Fornals and Thilo Kehrer departed. Moyes really needed the expensive loan signing of Kalvin Phillips to work out. He wanted Phillips but the midfielder has been a disaster. Ben Johnson, nominally a full-back, has been more useful as an auxiliary midfielder from the bench. West Ham looked at attacking additions, including a loan deal for Galatasaray’s Wilfried Zaha, but it is understood Moyes did not feel any potential signings would have lifted the squad’s level.


It is hardly the way to attack the Thursday-Sunday schedule. Moyes prefers a small core and has been slow to bring through academy players, but it caught up with West Ham against Leverkusen. They held out until the final 10 minutes in both legs but the inability to make decisive changes swung the tie. It should not be overlooked that all three of Leverkusen’s goals across the two legs were scored by Xabi Alonso’s substitutes.

There is a streak of lingering dysfunction to West Ham. They hired a technical director, Tim Steidten, last summer but have a manager who wants heavy input into signings. The relationship between Moyes and Steidten was said to be tense last summer. It feels as if West Ham have to choose between two recruitment models: the manager or the technical director.


Working against Moyes is that some of his picks have not worked out. There is a case for David Sullivan, the co-owner and most influential figure at the club, to give control to Steidten and ask the German to find a new manager and rebuild an ageing squad.

A decision has not been made, with talks planned when the season is over. At the moment, the sense from within West Ham is that Moyes, who looked likely to be given a two-year deal in January, will not have his contract renewed. But it could change. West Ham, who are eighth, still have to play Crystal Palace, Chelsea, Liverpool, Luton and Manchester City. Would they let Moyes go if they somehow qualify for Europe again?

Given the fixture list, though, the smart money is on a tired side slipping out of contention. Supporters will look at January and ponder a missed opportunity. They are entitled to be annoyed about dropped points in the league against Burnley, Sheffield United and Everton, not to mention squandering leads against Aston Villa and Newcastle after cautious substitutions.

It is not entitled to wonder whether another manager, with a more possession-based approach, could do better than Moyes. Be careful what you wish for? It does not logically follow that West Ham will automatically struggle if they part ways with Moyes. If they do struggle, that would be down to bad choices. It still doesn’t mean they have to keep playing it safe. Fans are allowed to wish for more.

onsideman 12:21 Sun Apr 21
Re: Careful what you wish for? Why West Ham fans want more than David Moyes

charleyfarley 11:49 Sat Apr 20


You'll have to forgive Nutsin, charley... he's a little hard of thinking so finds it difficult to follow stuff

Vexed 11:57 Sat Apr 20
Re: Careful what you wish for? Why West Ham fans want more than David Moyes

Superb job? One of the greatest figures in the club's history?

NOPE

charleyfarley 11:49 Sat Apr 20
Re: Careful what you wish for? Why West Ham fans want more than David Moyes

Nuts.
..
“most of us” that comment was made by Sir Alf.... and I agree in general with his reply and comments

Jaan Kenbrovin 11:27 Sat Apr 20
Re: Careful what you wish for? Why West Ham fans want more than David Moyes

‘If Moyes had gone after the cup win I'd have remembered him fondly as a practical manager who did a decent job.’

See and hear this a lot, but it doesn’t make sense. We’d have sacked a manager that won our first trophy since 1981?

What should have happened was him getting sacked before the WC, when our position and form was no better than what our previous two managers were sacked for, despite spending nearly 200m.

Nutsin 10:40 Sat Apr 20
Re: Careful what you wish for? Why West Ham fans want more than David Moyes

Charley,

When you say “most of us” who are you talking about exactly? Are you talking for all the West Ham fans on WHO or in general?

I’d like some proof if you are talking generally.

charleyfarley 9:47 Sat Apr 20
Re: Careful what you wish for? Why West Ham fans want more than David Moyes

Good reply Sir Alf and totally agree

"It is a factor because aside from being hard to watch. most of us also dont believe its the right approach to achieve the aforementioned improvements like league position, squad dev, use of young academy players and sustaining or improving european competition performance".

Alfs 9:42 Sat Apr 20
Re: Careful what you wish for? Why West Ham fans want more than David Moyes

Good article from 17 year old.

If Moyes had gone after the cup win I'd have remembered him fondly as a practical manager who did a decent job.

Unfortunately, he shat on that legacy by staying.

Sir Alf 6:59 Sat Apr 20
Re: Careful what you wish for? Why West Ham fans want more than David Moyes

Agree with much of the article. Lets Moyes off on a few things but generally gets it right. I too will remember Moyes as a good appointment who oversaw a good spell after years of problems and got us Euro football and a firet trophy in 40 odd years even if it was one from the lowest of Euro competition.

Having got there, the question is whether David Moyes can develop / build a squad ( assuming he would only carry on if he was a garekeeper on recruitment) and further improve our league position, maintain Euro qualifcation. The last point now looking to be a NO, he might improve our league position from last season by a couple of places but overall the trajectory of league placings is downwards in spite of a material spend on transfers.

The question of style and entertainment is separate but outsiders seem to think thats the only issue for us fans.

It is a factor because aside from being hard to watch. most of us also dont believe its the right approach to achieve the aforementioned improvements like league position, squad dev, use of young academy players and sustaining or improving european competition performance.

We have come some way to his credit but naturally want to kick on and the evidence this season is Moyes cannot achieve that and has actually seen us regress a bit.

We will hopefully remember him as a good interim manager who was a stepping stone to a sustained period of success

Now dont dilly dally Sullican and board members. Let Steidten have a shot at taking us forward and achieving some sustained success

BRANDED 6:16 Sat Apr 20
Re: Careful what you wish for? Why West Ham fans want more than David Moyes

AI is merely a LLM and wont be revealing anything we havent heard a million times before. We will only know what comes next when it comes and judging on the last 20 years on here there’ll probably be disagreements.

Nutsin 5:40 Sat Apr 20
Re: Careful what you wish for? Why West Ham fans want more than David Moyes

Article also mentions the level of talent in the team.

J.Riddle 5:32 Sat Apr 20
Re: Careful what you wish for? Why West Ham fans want more than David Moyes

Careful what you wish for? That was true when we got Pellegrini in as Brady said a few weeks ago, because he had to rebuild.

Now is very different as we have some top players

Areola
Alvarez
Bowen
Kudus (Liverpool want him he's 23 same age as Declan but scores and assists) £150m for me, no less.
Prowse
Paqueta (he may stay on if a decent manager comes in and his gambling investigation is still pending).

Also decent

Palmieri
Mavropanos

Not including the older players who will leave or squad players. We need players, but whoever comes in would have to be a complete idiot to relegate us with those players and others brought in.

Careful what you wish for?

That is absolute bollox, only unambitious Sullivan types will come out with that as they don't want to offer a decent transfer budget that a top manager will want. They are hoping Moyes lucks out gets in the Conference so they can get a cheap way out.

Spend peanuts get monkeys!

charleyfarley 5:18 Sat Apr 20
Re: Careful what you wish for? Why West Ham fans want more than David Moyes

Talking of Ai this is it's take on the article:-

ChatGPT

The article presents a comprehensive analysis of David Moyes's tenure at West Ham United, juxtaposing his achievements with lingering frustrations among fans regarding the team's style of play and tactical approach. Let's break down some key points:

moyes achievements
The author acknowledges Moyes's significant accomplishments during his second spell at West Ham, highlighting his role in steering the team away from relegation and towards consistent European qualification. Winning a trophy and maintaining a competitive edge in the Premier League are emphasized as notable achievements under his leadership.

Style of Play and Tactical Criticisms:
Despite the successes, there's criticism regarding the team's playing style, characterized by defensive solidity and reliance on counterattacks. Some fans express a desire for a more possession-based approach and greater attacking flair, particularly considering the talent available in the squad.

Transfer Policy and Squad Depth:
The article raises concerns about the squad's depth and transfer strategy, particularly during the January window, where key departures and unsuccessful signings have impacted the team's performance. The lack of defensive solidity and the failure to make decisive changes during matches are highlighted as areas of concern.

Managerial and Recruitment Dynamics:
Tensions between Moyes and the technical director regarding recruitment decisions are mentioned, suggesting a potential conflict between the manager's preferences and the club's overarching recruitment strategy. This raises questions about the balance of power and decision-making within the club's hierarchy.

Future Prospects and Managerial Decision:
The article discusses the uncertainty surrounding Moyes's future at the club, with his contract set to expire and talks planned for the end of the season. Despite the possibility of his contract not being renewed, there's speculation about whether West Ham would let him go if they secure European qualification again. However, the fixture list and recent performances indicate a potential slip out of contention.

Fan Expectations and Ambitions:
The piece concludes by highlighting the fans' entitlement to desire more from the team, emphasizing that wishing for a different managerial approach doesn't necessarily equate to guaranteed failure. There's a call for ambition and a willingness to explore alternative strategies to propel the club forward.

Overall, the article presents a nuanced assessment of Moyes's tenure at West Ham, acknowledging his successes while addressing valid concerns and aspirations for the club's future.
.

onsideman 5:12 Sat Apr 20
Re: Careful what you wish for? Why West Ham fans want more than David Moyes

Article mentions the lack of depth in the squad but skirts around the fact that for one reason or another as many as 9 or 10 of the squad from Thursday (plus Paqueta) either won't or shouldn't be here next season, either because they're headed elsewhere, won't sign a new contract, too old or not good enough

Massive rebuild needed

terry-h 5:06 Sat Apr 20
Re: Careful what you wish for? Why West Ham fans want more than David Moyes

Jacob Steinberg failed to mention our dismal performance losing to Bristol City in the FA Cup and mention of a statue for Moyes is some sort of joke surely.
Apparently he has connections with Sullivan and his final conclusion looks like being good news with the likely appointment of a more progressive head coach working alongside Steidten.

Nutsin 4:48 Sat Apr 20
Re: Careful what you wish for? Why West Ham fans want more than David Moyes

I’m with WD40, I’d like to see Moyes given at least another year if he gets us back into Europe then hive him a longer contract at the end of next season He’s earned it.

Hammer and Pickle 4:31 Sat Apr 20
Re: Careful what you wish for? Why West Ham fans want more than David Moyes

Good points about the conceded goals in the second half and being a low-block side that can’t defend, no doubt about that.

wd40 4:25 Sat Apr 20
Re: Careful what you wish for? Why West Ham fans want more than David Moyes

Hopefully they will give him another year on his contract as he deserves it but if not Moyes hate brigade will start asking for the next mans head inside 2 months.

lovely stadium throw in some great euro nights even won something at long fucking last!

club was in no mans land before he sorted it .

Hammer and Pickle 4:15 Sat Apr 20
Re: Careful what you wish for? Why West Ham fans want more than David Moyes

Well-written piece that.

Mind you, there’s something about it that makes me want to compare it to AI making a case for Moyes and another against him. But I won’t do that because he’s come to he right conclusion in the end.

Coffee 4:02 Sat Apr 20
Re: Careful what you wish for? Why West Ham fans want more than David Moyes

Nagel, maybe.

My guess is that he was given a deadline and five minutes to meet it. In which case he may be forgiven.

Nagel 3:57 Sat Apr 20
Re: Careful what you wish for? Why West Ham fans want more than David Moyes

Coffee 3:11 Sat Apr 20

This is a didactic rant compared to most of Steinberg's articles. Perhaps he's just trying to be fair minded and objective but he always seems to be sitting on the fence, considering he's a supporter of the club.

charleyfarley 3:25 Sat Apr 20
Re: Careful what you wish for? Why West Ham fans want more than David Moyes

My apologies I thought I had cut and pasted author
It’s the guardian Jacob Steinberg

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/apr/20/careful-what-you-wish-for-why-west-ham-fans-want-more-than-david-moyes

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